take that deal. don't go over the fiscal cliff. live to find another deal on a grand bargain. tax reform, entitlement. >> you really think democrats, they get that tax increase, that they're going to come and give spending cuts late sner. >> i think there are ways you can try to make it. eric's made a great point historically that things like ruddman, the spending cuts never end up happening. everyone who's realistic at the table recognizes you've got to have a balanced plan. serious cuts and revenue increases. you can't -- >> we've had 18 debt and deficit commissions since '81. the cuts never came. >> cynicism isn't a plan though, eric. we need to put forward a plan. can't just keep saying they're screwing it up. >> if you don't put cuts in though with tax increase, you've got a problem because it's easy to raise taxes on a few people. most people will not support cuts that hurt them. >> you've got to have entitlement reform. >> you can actually lower rates, close loopholes and raise revenue. >> all right. thanks to both. appreciate it. more than two months after the deadly a